General Chat

still here. I'll maybe able to resume the digging next week.

Definitly interesting. But we already know both levi and reapers have a deeper connection than just the usual synthetic organic relationship.

I do not believe Rife theory about levi not existing, but there's definitly a catch somewhere because synthesis seems to be what the child wants the most and the child being levi makes the most sense.

Are levi and harbinger one and the same? Does levi still control the reapers?

http://indoctrinationtheory.forumotion.co.uk/t449-no-leviathan-you-are-the-reapers

You still there? Very interesting thread, makes my head spin a little.

It's about what Leviathan REALLY is. Or could be. Many good observations from several people on the first page.

smash016 wrote:Btw, very Scary Door -- we have 3 registered users, yet our maximum number of simultaneous visitors was 5, and is now even 6...

Who is lurking here?

(Probably bots or open browser windows.)

Now it's 9... simultaneously. Seriously, it should be 2, maybe 3.

Okay, so I've been thinking once more -- why do the geth mass-produce the VR pods? Was that just to add to Rannoch's level design? Or maybe it's a sign the geth were planning to integrate with organics?

Or maybe... it's related to the whole virtual-reality and illusion theme that MIGHT be happening... Maybe the geth want to plunge organics into a constructed world, and maybe something like that is happening to Shepard (geth-induced or otherwise).

The thing is, the VR pod is a unique piece of artwork... until you get to Sanctuary, so I found out today. The pods that are used to turn refugees into husks, they bear an undeniable resemblance to the geth pods. At least the outer part. The inner part looks a lot like the breeding pods we find on Noveria and Virmire in ME1, and in ME2 as Grunt's tank.

Reused assets? Probably. But felt like sharing anyway.

--

Also, I feel that at Sanctuary, there's again an uncanny emphasis in the dialogue on "processing" and acquiring genetic data... just like at the Citadel. People are lured there, with promises of a safe haven which is really just a false sense of security. Just like at the Citadel. There's a video at the entrance hall that shows refugees entering the facility. Shepard says "keep looking", meaning either "keep looking around for leads as to what happened here" or "keep looking at this video." If you do the latter, you'll see new refugees are biometrically scanned, just like what's happening to all the refugees on the Citadel. A curious resemblance, I'd say.

FYI.

- Those manuscripts can indeed be found in Athame's temple, Liara says they have to do with the asari being taught things by divine beings, which we know weren't really divine, but Prothean -- and perhaps something moar...

- Also funny how there are three statues of Athame, arranged exactly like the three Leviathans. And how Shepard takes on the exact same pose as the statue when she senses the beacon is present. Eyes closed, head tilted upward.

- Also, when the VI at Thessia explains how every organic cycle has repeating elements, and explicitly NOT attributing them all to the Reapers, the camera shows a top-down view of the Milky Way, with red hexagons representing these repeated events. Interesting, huh? Not the Reapers, but something hexagonal...

Remind me to re-watch the entire Thessia level. It's chockful of leads.

But the 2nd part is a theory.

The notion of Shepherd is not really used even if you have Andraste, the chosen of the Maker who destroyed the tyranny of the mages and created the chantry (church) and died in the process betrayed by her husband.
But the chantry became slowly more or less the tool of oppression of all mages because those can be dangerous if possessed by deamons of the fade, the realm where magical power comes from.

In DA you have heroes who gather everyone around them and they could be called shepherds of the people of Thedas but they are never called by that name. (afaik but I'm not as proficient in DA lore as I am with ME)

What is also interesting lies with the way BW is presenting the story. The actual events on screen have never truly explained the reality  of the myths of this world.
There are talks of forgotten gods, we don't know if the maker really exists and if Andraste was really divine.

Spoiler:

I'm not familiar with DA. Are these words relevant to that game in any way? Is there are a shepherd role for any character?

By itself, this text is quite promising, indeed, for ME.

Lyrics in the new dragon age:

The shepherd’s lost
And his home is far
Keep to the stars
The dawn will come

So Bryson's project is called "Task Force Aurora" -- aurora meaning "dawn", which makes sense, as Bryson's task is breaching the darkness.

According to a datapad found in the lab, it's made up of two smaller projects, called "Basilisk" and "Scarab." It stands to reason these two names carry some meaning as well.

A basilisk is a legendary creature, like half serpent and half dragon, that could kill with its mere gaze or breath. This reminds me of Leviathan, "Your own species could be destroyed with a single thought."

A scarab is a beetle held sacred by the ancient Egyptians. Looking at its meaning I find it was symbolic for the idea of rebirth and regeneration. It has to do with funerals and death as well.

FYI.

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When the Reapers entered the asari system Ialessa, their first move was to send capital ships to the planet Trikalon to destroy its supercollider, "treating the supercollider as a greater threat than the asari naval fleet". Most remarkable, not? What danger could it pose to the Reapers?

It could be a pun on the media attention given to real-life superconductors, which some people argued could theoretically produce black holes and other stuff I don't understand one thing about. So maybe it's a joke, or it has to do with the dark energy plot.

At any rate, this specific supercollider is called the Susskind Supercollider, named after the real-life scientist Susskind, for which Wikipedia puts the holographic principle at the top of his list of scientific contributions.

FYI.

We see geth distinctively kneeling in front of an artifact and Saren says they regard Nazara as a god (which offends it) in ME1.

Therefore the WE does not apply to all geth. it could be
1 -  Legion inner softwares or
2 - the geth orthodoxes who stayed true to their beliefs whatever they are.

- allusions to organics worshipping reapers as god:
I think some species of the former cycle are described like that.
And the depiction of the reapers in the ME1 codex implies primitives thought reapers were deities but I need to check this.

I know there's lore that contradicts it, but just focusing on this specific conversation it really feels like Legion doesn't mean other geth specifically. More like the writer of that dialogue wanted to stress that there are reasons to imbue the Reapers with godlike qualities. For nobody in-universe specifically, but more as a message to the player.

Remember the original plan was there are godlike beings that humans find out they are meant to serve? Also I feel there should be more purpose to the Reapers than just what Leviathan tells us.

smash016 wrote:When explaining, Legion uses the plural "we", likely implying he speaks on behalf of the entire geth consensus or the entire geth hive consciousness.

Maybe the heretics have their own consensus, I don't know? Not even sure the schism is still there in ME3, during the war with the quarians and after the Reaper update?

It sounds like he means organics, anyway. He'd have used "heretics" or "other units" or something like that otherwise.

And well, I have a theory Reapers grant organics eternal life through a kind of mind upload to a virtual existence. It's what I wanted to describe in my Salvation through Destruction topic.

We see geth distinctively kneeling in front of an artifact and Saren says they regard Nazara as a god (which offends it) in ME1.

Therefore the WE does not apply to all geth. it could be
1 -  Legion inner softwares or
2 - the geth orthodoxes who stayed true to their beliefs whatever they are.

- allusions to organics worshipping reapers as god:
I think some species of the former cycle are described like that.
And the depiction of the reapers in the ME1 codex implies primitives thought reapers were deities but I need to check this.

When explaining, Legion uses the plural "we", likely implying he speaks on behalf of the entire geth consensus or the entire geth hive consciousness.

Maybe the heretics have their own consensus, I don't know? Not even sure the schism is still there in ME3, during the war with the quarians and after the Reaper update?

It sounds like he means organics, anyway. He'd have used "heretics" or "other units" or something like that otherwise.

And well, I have a theory Reapers grant organics eternal life through a kind of mind upload to a virtual existence. It's what I wanted to describe in my Salvation through Destruction topic.

smash016 wrote:Legion says his interaction with the Reapers in ME3 (the Reaper upgrade) did not make him regard the Reapers as deities, "However, we have gained perspective on why others would imbue them with these qualities."

I find this line curious. What "others" are implied here? If not the geth, it must be organics, right? I wonder if it could be related to my "salvation through destruction" ideas. You know, the whole afterlife theme, where Reapers might actually grant organics eternal life or passage into an afterlife. That would imbue the Reapers with godlike qualities.

Wouldn't others mean other geth?

which organics do regard reapers as gods?

Legion says his interaction with the Reapers in ME3 (the Reaper upgrade) did not make him regard the Reapers as deities, "However, we have gained perspective on why others would imbue them with these qualities."

I find this line curious. What "others" are implied here? If not the geth, it must be organics, right? I wonder if it could be related to my "salvation through destruction" ideas. You know, the whole afterlife theme, where Reapers might actually grant organics eternal life or passage into an afterlife. That would imbue the Reapers with godlike qualities.

smash016 wrote:Liara remarking Benezia liked to wear yellow... Seems odd to tell us just that without any further context or elaboration.

Could it be related to the bee (queen) hypothesis? Or the "yellow sour note?"

We already mentioned that.

The bee queen theory seems nice.

Liara remarking Benezia liked to wear yellow... Seems odd to tell us just that without any further context or elaboration.

Could it be related to the bee (queen) hypothesis? Or the "yellow sour note?"

little busy now

I'll try to answer as quickly as possible.

I think the reaper appearance may have to be taken at face value here. They need to find an orb to activate it and locate leviathan.

Or.. the reapers around the T-Ges facility are already under levi influence and are keeping it rather than trying to find it. But it could be a bit of a strech.

Yes lots of honeycombs in this facility. But honeycomb shields are quite common in ME3, therefore I think the shield tech coming originally from reaper levi tech fits better.
The pattern of the suit is another matter of course.

Yes I think the speech about making colonies disappear is related to ME2.
Remember I'm still gauging the idea about collectors being related to levi and not the reapers. But I'm not sure of anything here.
- if we assume the ilos pattern on the iff is relevant, then we have no proof collectors are tied to the reapers until the last scene of ME2 when the collector general connection to harbinger is directly shown AND harbinger is seen as leading the reaper fleet toward the galaxy.

But this scene is happening after Shep crossed the omega4 relay and therefore its authenticity could be doubted.

- The only other sequence where collector reaper connection could be seen is the firewalker dlc where one of the Cerberus researcher contacted the collectors, gave the mission location and was followed by geth.
Geth whom you have to fight on Corang, who are said to have made athmospheric research but are not present around the relic site. (why are they not there?)
Read the wiki here
http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Project_Firewalker:_Geth_Incursion

is it the geth or doc Cayce who left the artifact? wiki and the mission report do contradict each others.
Furthermore, geth research artifact contradict legion statement about geth having found nothing concerning protheans.

There's something which I really don't understand here and it comes either from poor writing or Cerberus reports being totally disconnected from what we are shown.

- I'm interested by the report talking about electrical storm cutting communications with a beta research site, I too am left in the dark about what it could imply but I doubt it could be useless.

So a few times it is stressed that the Reaper forces left the asteroid as soon as the Leviathan artifact was blown up. What is the implication here? Simply that the Reapers did not want Shepard to find, or get influenced by, the artifact?

Played some T-GES (pronounced "T-G-S" btw).

- Have you seen the T-GES facility is protected from impacting asteroids by a huge honeycomb shield?

- The T-GES logo... looks like a mining cart, but it also has pyramids and some "tip of the iceberg" imagery... possibly.

- Lots of honeycomb research suits at T-GES.

- The music for this mission is a warped version of the tune for Jacob's loyalty mission. Do you think it could be intentional? There is overlap. A research team stuck in the past. Possibly similar research themes (eg. starvation, subjugation).

- "Evolutionary implications of human biotics" -- how I would love to read that article... It could be about so much we've been speculating about.

- There's a datapad about storms preventing communications with a "beta research site", probably lasting for another week -- much like Noveria and Peak 15. Coincidence, probably. On the other hand, I have no idea why this datapad was put there as it seems irrelevant to the mission and doesn't really add anything worthwhile.

- Also some researchers secretly talking about how easy it is to let colonies disappear... do you think this is related to ME2's story?

- As noted before, "Mahavid", the asteroid T-GES operates on, is very likely taken from Mahavidya, seeing as other names in this system have Hindu ties as well, and it means "great revelation, manifestation, knowledge, or wisdom."

That might very well be where I recognize them from, instead of Hock's vault.

We have to be careful not to overanalyse every piece of clutter in the lab, even though I do believe most of it was placed on purpose.

Maybe check thessia temple.

I'll check Hock's vault myself shortly. Frankly I relied on memory here. Also, papyrus is not the same as stone, of course... lol

But if not the quarian tablets or writings, then what is it?

Confirmed, this is almost the only piece of decoration within Udina's office.

This and the ubiquitous red flowers found on the presidium.

No, this doesn't look like the quarian stone tablets.

But I think a small version of those can be found in Udina's office.
I'll check.