General Chat

Lol already struck by something.

If you look at the formation of the Council, it seems so obvious someone, behind the scenes, is stimulating galactic stability and cooperation (contrary to brute force used in the Prothean cycle) and how humanity is pushed to become a part of it.

Like how the volus are overlooked despite their contributions and despite them being around for much longer than humanity, the arguments are just silly excuses. They are overlooked because they can't meet any military demands in a Reaper war. Same for elcor, hanar. That's why humanity is indeed favored by the Council. They apparently have something to offer in the war.

And how the asari found the Citadel first, and are called "mediators" and "centrists", they're setting the stage for mutually beneficial cooperation such that no other race would ever think about seizing power for themselves because they all need to rely on each other.

And how the Spectres are "back room problem solvers" that can use any means to protect "galactic stability". So when asari politics fail, these individuals get rid of disruptive elements and keep the peace.

I mean, we already knew this from Choose Wisely, I just never knew these ideas are so extensively laid out in the very first hours of ME1.

The ME3 endings happened in a vacuum... they were not real. So are of no consequence. Actually pretty clever, giving us mutually exclusive endings but still leaving room for another sequel.

If I have to tie things to my own theories... then Shepard chose one of the futures proposed by the Reapers. Except when refusing to choose (Refusal ending). Otherwise, Shepard picked the state of affairs for the VR world to come.

Andromeda, on the contrary, is like the orthodox geth... they choose self-determinism. This is humanity, or what's left of it after the Reaper war, creating their own actual future. That happens in reality.

Btw, I started a new playthrough last night. I don't mean to investigate all too much, just playing in a laid-back fashion, you know... But I thought it'd be a good appetizer for Andromeda regardless. And who knows what I might learn.

smash016 wrote:We both know our ideas about the narrative are just... wonderful. I mean that.

But what little BW has communicated clearly establishes the game will be separate from the previous titles.

Seeing the state in which BW left Mass Effect, and the audience's response to that, with key people leaving the team... I think they threw whatever plans they had overboard.

Of course, they could be lying on purpose. To not spoil anything. But attracting existing players and fans is in their best interest, so you'd think they would tease us more if the previous game did in fact tie into Andromeda.

Sorry, man... I so hope I'm wrong.

But this will clearly be separated from previous titles. Andromeda will deal with the new galaxy, imho we'll only have hints (for those who know where to look obviously) about what happened near sol but the big protagonists of old will not be erased.
They said they don't want people to feel they made the wrong choice, then they won't talk about the consequences of those choices.

Of course I know we speculate (even if I think our ideas are much more logical than most other theories) but using again the honeycomb with arkcon tells me they haven't dropped anything. It can't be just a hunch or wishful thinking or just a generic shape. It's deliberate.
Casey has left but remember he stayed until the narrative had been firmly written. Lead writer Mc Walter has stayed too. And this time we heard of no change at the last minute like we heard about the hypothetical dark energy plot.

I think the crucible/shepard experiment has been unleashed on the known universe according to Shepard's choice. Yet Leviathan designed a way to safeguard his thrall species by using Cerberus to build the arks and send them in another galaxy. That's my current theory.

Why Andromeda?

Real life I think BW will try to restablish the trust of their customers and then they 'll come back to the known universe.

We don't know if the Shepard who speaks to the colonists in the ad is the Shepard who saved the citadel or the Cerberus resurrected Shepard. That would be an important clue.

Keep faith. The narrative is so important for BW, they can't leave the ME universe in a limbo. They will find another way. (harbinger voice here)

I'm waiting to see what species are officially on the arks.
My money is on Humans, Asari obviously, krogans, Salarians, and Turians = council species. My money is also on the species we think were heavily uplifted like the drells or Hanars but we'll see.

I'm sure no batarians will make the trip unless illegally put on the arks too. And we both know batarians were the most heavily indoctrinated in the latest cycle. But of course the explanation could be much more mundane, they had been thrown out of the council previously.

Seeing how the Dragon Age story became much more straightforward in revealing what's behind the scene, i really thing the ME franchise is mature enough to do the same thing.

We both know our ideas about the narrative are just... wonderful. I mean that.

But what little BW has communicated clearly establishes the game will be separate from the previous titles.

Seeing the state in which BW left Mass Effect, and the audience's response to that, with key people leaving the team... I think they threw whatever plans they had overboard.

Of course, they could be lying on purpose. To not spoil anything. But attracting existing players and fans is in their best interest, so you'd think they would tease us more if the previous game did in fact tie into Andromeda.

Sorry, man... I so hope I'm wrong.

Looks like the instructor is not the only one to have that shape. Could indeed be just generic, we'll see if this 3 dotted shape appears on something else.

Something else, they said all species will not make it to Andromeda. Could it be only those who were the most upgraded by the protheans would attempt the journey? I'm just speculating here.

i have to object about the 3 dots. They are right on the chest where usually there's a logo like on the N7 character. It's not generic as the only generic 3 dots we found hitherto have been the 3 dots on the knees of Elanos Haliat which probably aren't anything more than armor design. But those 3 dots combined with the honeycomb logo of Arkcon really makes me feel we are on something here.
Do you remember what a bioware writers wrote about asari and bees?

I also heard they'll drop thermal clips in Andromeda. That would be really convenient and plays exactly into Choose wisely narrative who predicted years ago the next Mass Effect will happen a long time in the future to hide that ME2 and ME3 aren't real. They told quite a lot of bullshit but I think they were right on spot there.

Of course we have to wait for the game to be able to speculate on concrete stuff but seeing underground flowers without sun or some kind of portals which connect planets makes me wonder if Ilos and the jump to the citadel wasn't real after all and we were just watching parts of the narrative we weren't meant to understand at the time. (Shep's thought on Eletania)

Sorry, didn't check back here recently.

Read your contributions on the IT forum, though. Three dots is just... very generic, I think. Armor is just Mass Effect style. But who knows.

If we assume there is an in-universe plausible explanation for the Ark Initiative, then Cerberus and by speculative extension Leviathan being involved seems the way to go. Or rather, Reaper tech makes possible everything that shouldn't be possible, but Reaper tech is ultimately Leviathan tech, too. I wouldn't be surprised salvaged Reaper tech is the in-game explanation for supra-FTL travel. They need to travel large distances each harvest anyway, right?

At this point, I'm just hoping for a good game, as good as the previous ones. If there's a substantial link to the trilogy, perhaps even to IT-ish themes, all the better.

I want to add timeline says the Andromeda initiative launches somewhere between ME2 and ME3 in 2185.

The armor of the female intructor seems strangely reminiscent of the Cerberus Banshee armor. We must remeber at that time Cerberus is NOT openly hostile to the human alliance and owns quite alot of fronts in citadel space. Wouldn't be out of character for them to fund an expedition to another galaxy. Wouldn't be also out of character for Leviathan to do it.

Something someone underlined on youtube, the tech used to bring those arks to Andromeda seems quite more efficient than standard citadel tech, their FTL speed seems quite amazing. 600 years to reach andromeda seems quite short.

Andromeda is 2,537 millions light years away. Go figure what speed would be needed to reach it in 600 years? Council tech? I don't think so.

Not jumping on any conclusion.

But watch the symbol on the chest of the female white and blue character on this video after 0:32.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPkv7DmeM1A&list=PL3a3tkpS9DNRUbHcBYrvv9GKtFlFoSqH7

3 dots like one of the hidden cerberus symbol.

--- I'm just dropping this here because the private messaging on the IT forum is... buggy or something ---

Yeah, I spotted the plants, too... and the insectoid aliens. But don't want to jump on every detail just yet...

What do you mean, "repetition of the Leviathan network", do you mean those glowing orbs?

I don't think there's an inherent problem of BioWare having to think "too far ahead." 1st of all, they could've thought of the gist of things, with details being fleshed out later in the series, when needed. 2nd, if a franchise is successful, it often happens things are stalled, with extra episodes, extra stories placed in between, and the reveal being pushed farther ahead (although frankly this has inherent risks of writers leaving the team and commercial (EA) interests interfering etc., all very relevant to ME I suppose).

I don't have to tell you all over again about my VR afterlife theory. But I'm still baffled by how much of ME's oddities are explained by it. Even though I'm not currently able to work out all its intricacies. I am personally convinced death and the afterlife still play a large part in ME's secret story. Just remember Hudson talking about Gladiator, remember? It's on the 1st page of my still-to-be-finished blog... All the references to death... Can't mean nothing.

Feels good to ruminate about ME again, lol. Wanna do a replay right now.

Let me know if you any ideas, Vlad.

vlad78 wrote:I really think there are quite a lot of things up BW sleeves.  I seriously think they haven't dropped anything from the first story.

Once again, let me remind you of the end of the foundation comics.

Who's the mech helping Rasa? What is it? a mech showing some feelings?
What is Cerberus doing with all their machines storing every possible information about shepard?
Why does miranda lie to Shepard about Rasa?

Those are not old stories, this is McWalter himself at the helm giving us some hints during the making of ME Andromeda.

BTW you were talking about the alien ship storing a civilization in an alternate reality in its memory chips, a civilization sent from another galaxy or do I remember poorly? Could that be strangely similar to what will happen in the next game (without the alternate reality... officialy)?

Yes, you're right about Walters, but at the same time the idea of Walters just being a writer who habitually drops the ball and gets away with it, is not beyond me.

Not sure if from another galaxy, but a very old ship anyway. So what you're suggesting is indeed a very interesting possibility for Andromeda. But in my theory, the ship would be an actual Reaper, and a single Reaper, most likely Sovereign from ME1, that's running the simulation.

And I still feel that Shepard is inserted into this simulation more or less on purpose, with some kind of secret objective. So who knows Andromeda is what's going on in reality, and then these guys bump into Sovereign and discover what really went on in the first three games.

But this is all very speculative of course and made up as I type.

vlad78 wrote:
So your current opinion over it is : It's not a dream, it's real, but not happening in the real world, just in a reproduction similar to the alien vessel which computer contained a whole universe.

When I read that news story a lot of things clicked into place, yes. Then again, it's only one of many news stories, most of which are just filler material, for all I know it means nothing.

I really think there are quite a lot of things up BW sleeves. I seriously think they haven't dropped anything from the first story.

Once again, let me remind you of the end of the foundation comics.

Who's the mech helping Rasa? What is it? a mech showing some feelings?
What is Cerberus doing with all their machines storing every possible information about shepard?
Why does miranda lie to Shepard about Rasa?

Those are not old stories, this is McWalter himself at the helm giving us some hints during the making of ME Andromeda.

BTW you were talking about the alien ship storing a civilization in an alternate reality in its memory chips, a civilization sent from another galaxy or do I remember poorly? Could that be strangely similar to what will happen in the next game (without the alternate reality... officialy)?

smash016 wrote:I considered the 6-year gap, but it is relatively easy to import a 3D model into a newer engine and take it from there. It saves time. I'm just saying.

Like you say, almost the ENTIRE trilogy would be irrelevant, and I'm not buying that. Rather, the entire trilogy would take place in an alternate reality that is very relevant.

How? The trilogy alludes many times to the idea of virtual life being as meaningful as mortal / incarnate life, especially when one cannot tell the difference. An important philosophical concept, too, btw. But for greater beings than us, i.e. Reapers and Leviathan, the distinction would matter, because they created the very distinction. To preserve organic life at all cost. To save them from extinction. To perfect them. Make them immortal. Can't you read the Reapers' ideology in these words? The Reapers are still carrying out their original mandate, devised by Leviathan. Save all organic life. Literally store it in computer simulations. That's still my favorite theory anyway... A virtual afterlife. Remember, the countless references to death.

"This is not your domain." A mortal is not meant to meet his maker, his god... To see through the divine plan. Shepard does. Sees through the veil somehow. Meets the Creator, the great architect. "You bring only death." Shepard is sabotaging the Reaper plan. Everyone will die, will not be saved, be lost forever. Another major theme in BW's works... Hero turns out to be anti-hero. "The Anti-Shepard."

But whatever is true, I doubt we'll ever see it. Chances still are Andromeda is a reboot of sorts. BioWare overplayed their hand. Probably.



What's EHTWIT?

rhm I meant EHTSIT

Extremely hard to swallow indoctrination theory.

So your current opinion over it is : It's not a dream, it's real, but not happening in the real world, just in a reproduction similar to the alien vessel which computer contained a whole universe.

I considered the 6-year gap, but it is relatively easy to import a 3D model into a newer engine and take it from there. It saves time. I'm just saying.

Like you say, almost the ENTIRE trilogy would be irrelevant, and I'm not buying that. Rather, the entire trilogy would take place in an alternate reality that is very relevant.

How? The trilogy alludes many times to the idea of virtual life being as meaningful as mortal / incarnate life, especially when one cannot tell the difference. An important philosophical concept, too, btw. But for greater beings than us, i.e. Reapers and Leviathan, the distinction would matter, because they created the very distinction. To preserve organic life at all cost. To save them from extinction. To perfect them. Make them immortal. Can't you read the Reapers' ideology in these words? The Reapers are still carrying out their original mandate, devised by Leviathan. Save all organic life. Literally store it in computer simulations. That's still my favorite theory anyway... A virtual afterlife. Remember, the countless references to death.

"This is not your domain." A mortal is not meant to meet his maker, his god... To see through the divine plan. Shepard does. Sees through the veil somehow. Meets the Creator, the great architect. "You bring only death." Shepard is sabotaging the Reaper plan. Everyone will die, will not be saved, be lost forever. Another major theme in BW's works... Hero turns out to be anti-hero. "The Anti-Shepard."

But whatever is true, I doubt we'll ever see it. Chances still are Andromeda is a reboot of sorts. BioWare overplayed their hand. Probably.



What's EHTWIT?

smash016 wrote:Yes, the implication could be that the Prothean beacon on Eden Prime was also of Leviathan design, or served a Leviathan purpose. Also seeing as how the turians are seemingly worshiping it, just like how Saren felt an almost religious attraction about the beacon.

On the other hand, reusing of old turian animation model from ME1 for cheap visual effect?

6 years between both games. The engine is not of the same generation. Bioware upgraded tremendously the quality of their 3D engine, why bother reusing a 6 years old animation? If it's just a coincidence, I would say they reused a methaphore showing the mythical or almost religious nature of both the prothean artifact and levi shard, but I wouldn't consider a technical explanation.

I'm not saying they are right but the idea choose wisely had about reapers trying to find levi and not to cross the conduit is still a possibility.

IF the prothean beacon is tied to the leviathan network, by finding it, Saren was able to locate Leviathan's hideout. But he wouldn't take the beacon onboard Sovereign because of the mortal threat it would create for the sentient machine. Then Saren ordered the Geth to destroy the beacon and the colony with it.

If CW is right, everything which happens after that is irrelevant, a red herring because it's part of the illusion. There is no conduit, no battle of the citadel, no Tali arriving on the citadel with a recording of Saren admitting the Eden Prime raid was his doing  2 DAYS before those events had happened.
There is no Virmire, no Feros, nothing. Well those place probably exist, but the events taking place there do not.

But even for me, it's a bit hard to swallow. That's the extremely hard to swallow indoctrination theory or EHTWIT. And the fight would be not to save Shep's mind from indoctrination, but to sway leviathan 's behavior toward lesser species.  

Yes, the implication could be that the Prothean beacon on Eden Prime was also of Leviathan design, or served a Leviathan purpose. Also seeing as how the turians are seemingly worshiping it, just like how Saren felt an almost religious attraction about the beacon.

On the other hand, reusing of old turian animation model from ME1 for cheap visual effect?

Something here has to be meaningful. There are to many similarities between the scene depicting saren opening the beacon and the scene on Namakli.

smash016 wrote:Yeah, if I had a fraction of the free time I used to have, I'd have completed another playthrough and ideas would have crystallized a little more.

Still want to finish my blog, but memory is fading, you know... Was hard enough to put it all together when I was still thinking about it daily, let alone now.

But good to see you're still alive, Vlad. Who knows what the 4th game will bring us.

And hey, a new episode... Didn't even know about that. Will watch it... in due time.

(edit) Actually, I've started a new playthrough... I play like half an hour a week... But the first beacon activation is still a major event for any conspiracy theory to consider. If it's just an information cache, like everybody says, why does it levitate people, and why does it appear to be part of a galactic network / transmission sequence of some kind? Why does Chakwas allude to dreaming afterwards (beta waves during coma)?

What if the "Prothean archive" was just a ruse, and the beacon found by Shepard at the end of the mission was really a trap of geth design, set for Shepard? To plunge Shep in some kind of alternate / virtual reality. Remember the Prothean site at Eden Prime is empty. If Saren and his geth moved the beacon from the dig site to the spaceport, as the story tells, then why did they even leave it behind for Shepard to find? If they were able to carry the beacon with them, might as well have taken it on board Sovereign, if all they wanted was to prevent anyone from activating it.

If it's a leviathan shard, they sure don't want to put it on Sovereign imho.

Yeah, if I had a fraction of the free time I used to have, I'd have completed another playthrough and ideas would have crystallized a little more.

Still want to finish my blog, but memory is fading, you know... Was hard enough to put it all together when I was still thinking about it daily, let alone now.

But good to see you're still alive, Vlad. Who knows what the 4th game will bring us.

And hey, a new episode... Didn't even know about that. Will watch it... in due time.

(edit) Actually, I've started a new playthrough... I play like half an hour a week... But the first beacon activation is still a major event for any conspiracy theory to consider. If it's just an information cache, like everybody says, why does it levitate people, and why does it appear to be part of a galactic network / transmission sequence of some kind? Why does Chakwas allude to dreaming afterwards (beta waves during coma)?

What if the "Prothean archive" was just a ruse, and the beacon found by Shepard at the end of the mission was really a trap of geth design, set for Shepard? To plunge Shep in some kind of alternate / virtual reality. Remember the Prothean site at Eden Prime is empty. If Saren and his geth moved the beacon from the dig site to the spaceport, as the story tells, then why did they even leave it behind for Shepard to find? If they were able to carry the beacon with them, might as well have taken it on board Sovereign, if all they wanted was to prevent anyone from activating it.

smash016 wrote:Okay, time for some old-fashioned paranoid rambling!

I re-read the Revelation novel, and there's one thing that piques my interest.

"After the Geth War with the quarians, the geth isolated themselves behind the Veil, far from the eyes of organic races. The Veil is almost impossible to scan through or navigate, meaning no one knows exactly what the geth are doing beyond it." (ME Wiki on the Perseus Veil)

"The Veil's total opacity prevents Council intelligence from surveying geth activity. Theoretically, the geth could be preparing a devastating attack against which the Council could be defenseless, or the geth could have died out, so that the defense budget against them could be gaining the Alliance nothing but economic ruination.

Despite fears of geth, prospectors do occasionally mount salvage ventures inside the Veil; one ended in tragedy. Using technomental domination, the geth drew the team into the Veil before aiming them back as husks at the organic society that produced them." (Codex on the Perseus Veil)

Why was it so important to keep stressing the geth could be doing // anything // and other races wouldn't know about it? Why are the geth apparently capable of "technomental domination" (ring a bell, anyone)? And why is the "AI artifact" Sovereign found so close to the Perseus Veil?

And yeah, we always found so many similarities between Reaper and geth architecture, remember?

Did you know the novel takes its name from Saren studying Dr. Qian's notes on Sovereign? It's the only thing called a "revelation" in the entire novel. Once Sovereign's power would be unleashed, "everything would be forever changed" and "humanity would learn its place" and "Sovereign was the key to it all." Saren is saying this before he got indoctrinated, mind you. At the sight of just a warship or some advanced AI tech? Karpyshyn is communicating way more than that. Reapers, one would say.

But Dr. Qian's notes are primarily linking Sovereign's tech to the geth. If anything, this is foreshadowing a prominent role for the geth. This entire prologue story is foreshadowing the geth's importance. Nothing about a Reaper armada invading the galaxy. About some kind of apocalypse.

TLDR; The Perseus Veil and the way the geth are presented in this novel, are such a HUGE Chekhov's Gun for the geth being the real enemies. "Gethsemane", remember? Traitors, deceivers, like Judas.

Alive and kicking but with so little time.

Hello guys. How are you?
Happy new year.


Geth geth geth everywhere.
Do you remember the little theory I had about geth linked to egyptian mythology, geth being Ammut, the deamon devourer of sinners who infringed Maat's code during their life, and in the game the threat created unwillingly by the quarians pushed by levi  to keep organics in line with the council and which would inevitably work for the reapers at the end of each cycle?

BTW the last Choose wisely episode has been released.  Have you seen it?
Major change to what we discussed with Jenna, they abandonned the theory of the crash of the Normandy SR1 around Virmire and locate the start of the dream right at the moment Shep activated the beacon.

Interesting bit, they demonstrated how Tali's story doesn't add up. In fact, Tali came to the citadel with a record of Saren's voice proving his involvment in the Eden Prime attack DAYS before the attack even happened. Again it could be a mistake, or another piece of evidence showing most of shep's squadmates are not what they seem and where put on the Normandy for a reason far beyond the alliance or the council intentions.
Do you remember TIM's sentence recorded on Cronos station vids? He will surround Shep with familiar or friendly faces to make him comfortable.

Again, as you were talking about the bigger role the geth could have, remember that I think most council species were manipulated by leviathan like chess pieces on a game board and quarians like asaris are thralls.


Another thing, did you watch the end of Dragon Age inquisition? trespasser dlc?
I talk about it because it's another exmple about how bioware can play with its players.
Watch it on youtube.  The Fade which is the land of dreams and the source of magic has been artificially separated from reality by one of the elven gods. But those gods where not gods at all just powerful wizars, so powerful in fact that they could be compared to gods and made of every other livings they servants and slaves.

And this god cut our reality from the Fade by creating the veil, a magical barrier which trapped most other gods into the fade and delivered the world from their domination.
Interesting points are as follow:

- This is a central keyplot of the dragon age universe. This god and the disappearance of elven gods because of him existed in the game lore from the very beginning of the first game 10 years ago but it has always been shrouded in myths and legends hitherto.
This is directly similar to our belief that leviathan and his little games with the reapers have existed hidden within the Mass Effect lore since day 1 nine years ago.

- Reality as players knew it in DA is not the truth. But the interesting twist in DA lies with the fact that the god I'm talking about, Dread wolf wants to restore the world as it was, and it might mean the death of all living beings who came after the split, like the humans.

In Mass effect, we want the truth.

Okay, time for some old-fashioned paranoid rambling!

I re-read the Revelation novel, and there's one thing that piques my interest.

"After the Geth War with the quarians, the geth isolated themselves behind the Veil, far from the eyes of organic races. The Veil is almost impossible to scan through or navigate, meaning no one knows exactly what the geth are doing beyond it." (ME Wiki on the Perseus Veil)

"The Veil's total opacity prevents Council intelligence from surveying geth activity. Theoretically, the geth could be preparing a devastating attack against which the Council could be defenseless, or the geth could have died out, so that the defense budget against them could be gaining the Alliance nothing but economic ruination.

Despite fears of geth, prospectors do occasionally mount salvage ventures inside the Veil; one ended in tragedy. Using technomental domination, the geth drew the team into the Veil before aiming them back as husks at the organic society that produced them." (Codex on the Perseus Veil)

Why was it so important to keep stressing the geth could be doing // anything // and other races wouldn't know about it? Why are the geth apparently capable of "technomental domination" (ring a bell, anyone)? And why is the "AI artifact" Sovereign found so close to the Perseus Veil?

And yeah, we always found so many similarities between Reaper and geth architecture, remember?

Did you know the novel takes its name from Saren studying Dr. Qian's notes on Sovereign? It's the only thing called a "revelation" in the entire novel. Once Sovereign's power would be unleashed, "everything would be forever changed" and "humanity would learn its place" and "Sovereign was the key to it all." Saren is saying this before he got indoctrinated, mind you. At the sight of just a warship or some advanced AI tech? Karpyshyn is communicating way more than that. Reapers, one would say.

But Dr. Qian's notes are primarily linking Sovereign's tech to the geth. If anything, this is foreshadowing a prominent role for the geth. This entire prologue story is foreshadowing the geth's importance. Nothing about a Reaper armada invading the galaxy. About some kind of apocalypse.

TLDR; The Perseus Veil and the way the geth are presented in this novel, are such a HUGE Chekhov's Gun for the geth being the real enemies. "Gethsemane", remember? Traitors, deceivers, like Judas.

Wut, you guys are still alive out there...?

Actually, I do plan on completing the blog.

But patience will be necessary.

And I just started re-reading the first ME novel. Maybe it'll get me to re-play the games one more time... to refresh my memory, you know.

Wow Smash you made a blog?! That's so freaking awesome! Seeing stuff that was discussed here laid out so neatly on a blog... Man that's just amazing. I really do hope you plan on updating it again!

Also did you guys hear about this me:a leak? https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/3troe0/new_mass_effect_andromeda_gameplay_information/cx8mnh8 Apparently cerberus might be a part of it perhaps.